Wing Chun is about Logic not Mysticism!

Combat Magazine interview with Lucas Castrounis (06.2001)

Lucas Castrounis has a grace and elegance, allied to a youthful complexion, that makes him looks years younger than he is. His physical presence is complimented by an easy wit and charm as he discusses the art of Wing Chun that he loves. His varied experience has seen him work as a fight choreographer and oversee the door for nightclubs. He currently runs the Reading Wing Chun and Kali Academy under the auspices of the BIKMA Association, after having studied at "The Basement" with Nino Bernardo.

Lucas's dedication and determination is reflected in the way he started again, from scratch, with Nino when he felt that his original instruction had been lacking. With an inquiring mind, Lucas consistently looks beyond the fighting applications of his art, searching for the conceptual truths behind the physical training, and is more than happy to share his findings with his students.

Combat: Tell us a little about your Reading Academy, Lucas.

Lucas: I established the Reading Academy in 1992 with very few students to begin with, but it has grown in a very big way now. The Academy teaches Wing Chun and Kali, my Wing Chun and Kali background has come through the Basement, from my teacher Nino Bernardo.

I attended Nino’s seminar and noticed a difference between what I was practicing at the Seminar that day and what I was practicing at the time with a teacher who referred to himself as a Sifu and related himself to a well known Master. I begun to question the Wing Chun I was learning. They may have looked similar but were really poles apart in theory and technique. It was a hard decision to make, asking myself if I wanted to continue with that, or begin again. It was very hard to start again.

Combat: Nino and his "Basement" have a great reputation.

Lucas: Nino is a teacher of mine and a very good friend, very good as a guide in my life. Nino has a lot to offer and his interpretation of Wing Chun is a lot deeper, he has taken Wing Chun to a different level, more than just a system of fighting. He is also a musician, a guitar player, the television advert was just the icing on the cake and it was very well received.

Combat: You've been in the limelight yourself, with choreography.

Lucas: It was by accident. I received a phone call from the Sonning Mill Theatre in Reading. They had heard of my background with Nino, and that I was the only authentic Wing Chun school in Berkshire. I gave advice on the choreography and the end result was very good. Nino came with me to the premiere and the reception we received was excellent. The actor was a very good student and spent time at my school, to copy everything I showed him, and he did extremely well.

Combat: Does Kali and Wing Chun compliment each other?

Lucas: Yes, although Kali is more to do with weapons, and I love Kali because of the beautiful coordination, but the way of training is slightly different to Wing Chun, the weapon is an extension of your hand, it's bad enough in Wing Chun (when you're learning) to control your hands but with an extension the job becomes even harder (laughs). So if you can handle this, maybe your Wing Chun will get better.

Combat: You believe in Wing Chun as a concept-can you elaborate on this?

Lucas: Wing Chun is a system that has become a concept. It is a complete system because it combines the totality of the whole body. It shows you a way to adapt to any situation but it does not show you how to do it a particular way. When you complete the system you understand this, when you start you don't know this. Everything starts with a syllabus, when you learn a language you start with the ABC.

People look at the training, see the chi sau, the counter attack, they don't see the knock-out, don't confuse the training with the reality, chi sau prepares you for the fight, when you finish the system, then the concept applies. If you use the concepts of Wing Chun, basically mean’s how not to get hit, use the strategy of Wing Chun, the simplicity, then it can be applied to any system you practice or a street-fight because Wing Chun teaches you not to be stupid.

Everything in the syllabus is there to help you grow, you have to be honest with the student and explain that what they learn is only the preparation for the fight, it's the training for the freedom of expression, mental and physical conditioning, the way you train and the way you fight are totally different things.

Combat: Do the concepts go beyond physical practice?

Lucas: Let's separate the two issues. Physical training is to command your body to do certain things, of course you need the theory and strategy of Wing Chun to help you to higher levels, but do I have the patience to stay with the system to discover the concept, it's up to the individual! When you finish the system do you simply know all the forms, the moves? Is it enough? Do you then just go off boxing and fight? Wing Chun can make you a totally different person, a better person.

Combat: You say that Wing Chun is not about the mystical, it's about the logical.

Lucas: I'm sure you've heard a lot of mystical b.s. about secret techniques. If someone has a "secret" technique and he shows it to one person then it's not a secret anymore is it? ( smiles ) But we love that secrecy! We love to think that we know "the secret". I've trained with Nino over a long period of time and everything he taught me, none of it was secret ( laughs ). What he taught other students was no secret, as a matter of fact we exchange ideas to a high level, the same way I do with my students. Unfortunately some people "sell" the mystical.

The accepted history of Wing Chun makes a nice story but there is no evidence of Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun as founders of the system. Wing Chun was first developed and practised in the Siu Lim Temple in China and there is proof that a Wing Chun hall existed in the temple itself.

Once Wong Shun Leung had said it is impossible that just one person created such an efficient combat system. Documented history can be traced concretely from Leung Tsan, to Cha Wah Shun, and then to Yip Man, followed by Wong Shun Leung who taught my sifu Nino Bernardo. This is just one lineage under this family tree, but of course, there are many others.

Combat: Do you think that selling the mystical can hide a lack of real knowledge?

Lucas: I don't want to talk about that because I don't train in anything "mystical". What I can say is I think Kung Fu always had mystical connections for the Western Interpretation and maybe some people have capitalised on that to disguise their own shortcomings. My previous instructor would say to me "you're not ready" and I was just a student, I had no reason not to believe him. When I was going to Nino's seminar my instructor told me "You're not ready", how can you not be ready for a seminar? (laughs)

You always have to ask questions, whatever you do, and search for logical explanations, if something you see doesn't make sense ASK! Don't feel ashamed or embarrassed. I'd rather look foolish than waste my money. There should be a logical explanation there.

Combat: Is Wing Chun still valid as a street self defence system, you've worked the door?

Lucas: As a door supervisor my job was to difuse trouble not add to it, that's your role. You are being asked to use minimal force, how do you define minimum force? It's a whole other area. Self defence is a confusing area. What is "real" self defence, let's dismiss these short courses, they're a bad idea, you have not matured. You have not developed over time, so your response is not like an "automatic pilot". You have to condition your mind and body enough to react this way, find the right school and train regularly.

Combat: You have a motto: "don't fight angry, fight scared". What do you mean?

Lucas: Anger makes you stupid. You lose your focus, you don't know what you're doing. Being scared will help you, whatever art you practise. I don't say I know Wing Chun, let's fight, I'm scared you're going to hurt me and that makes me alert. You need a healthy fear, because fear can cause you to freeze, but a healthy fear can increase your speed and increase your intelligence.

Combat: Wing Chun has built its reputation as a street system.

Lucas: Yes, Wing Chun has been given a bad name in the past, this has come from the street fight. Yes, Wing Chun is a very good form of self defence but is that all? Listen, today we have guns on the street, so if you want to be a street fighter then be aware of that. Wing Chun has a lot more to offer, it develops mental and physical fitness, coordination, it enhances the ability to learn, helps you cope with stress and fear. It's amazing how Wing Chun helps you to deal with you, become aware of yourself before you start dealing with other people.

Combat: Why don't you like to be called "sifu"?

Lucas: In Chinese, as I understand it, Sifu means teacher, or wise man, so sifu could also be someone who makes shoes, but because it is a term translated into another language, maybe we're missing the point. I don't dare call myself sifu, I will leave that to other people. I call Nino my sifu because of my respect for him, for what he has given me in our relationship over the years.

My students don't call me sifu but I have a good, friendly relationship with them and there's mutual respect. I call myself an enthusiastic practitioner of the art of Wing Chun, which I share and exchange with my students and all of our skills grow as a result. The best way to learn Wing Chun is to practice, discover, question, and exchange ideas, and the only way to achieve that is through the hard training, having fun, and being patient.